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crabby

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Reply with quote  #1 
Several months ago I hauled my rig to service the lower end (water pump, anode, seals, corrosion on shift shaft).  The motor was running fine at that time, reaching it's top end at a little over 5700 rpms.  After launching it ran fine for a short time (twenty minutes or so) then I seem to have lost a cylinder: top end dropped about 400-500 rpms, loss of mpg (my best cruise was usually around 4200 rpms getting 2.7 mpg, this dropped to around 2.25 mpg).  The symptoms were similar to what happened when the dealer installed a sparkplug with a zero gap way back at the 300 hour service, that is why I figured I lost a cylinder.

Pulled the plugs, #3 (middle starboard side) was wet.  Installed new plugs, same thing.

Swapped coils and wire between #1 and #3, same thing.

A cylinder drop test was not very conclusive, neither spark drop nor injector drop really pointed to anything, and static tests gave good sounds from the injectors.

Seemingly good spark at idle (it triggers my inductive ignition gun, all cylinders), also triggers gun using the static test.

I changed the injector with a brand new one (and loaded the coefficients to the EMM).  I actually lost another few hundred rpms, my top engine speed is now down to about 5200 trimmed way out, just over 5000 at a normal trim.

TPS was within spec but at the high end (192), I did a recalibration anyhow, didn't help.

Exhaust pressure fitting was totally clogged, installed a new one.  No difference.

VST/pump was changed last year (due to a crack in the housing, the cooling side was full of debris but the filters were clean).

I run a racor filter ahead of the motor.  Tank was pulled and cleaned back in 2012, all new lines installed at that time (I was rebuilding the coffin lid and needed to inspect the tank).  New primer bulb two months ago (last fall while fishing I did a bit of low speed running and had the bulb go totally slack on me and the motor died on leaving the fishing grounds, so I replaced it this spring; don't know if this could be related, the motor just dying as I tried to plane but I never noticed it prior or since).

Compression seems a little low all around (105 each cylinder starboard, 100 each port side) but may be because I neglected to block the throttle plates open when I checked.

Did a decarb with Seafoam, not much nasty smoke at all.  Have also run some seafoam thru the fuel system, but now running pump gas (87 octane, marine moonshine (10% ethanol)).

I have not done fuel line pressure/vacuum/bubble  testing, but since the issue SEEMS to be pointing at a single cylinder and the fuel lines are common to all I have not invested the time yet (nor do I currently own the gauges, need to pick them up).

Motor has always seen XD100, I just recently dropped it down to the TCW3 setting (not before all this started).  Boat is a 22 Boston Whaler Outrage with bracket, no T top, prop is a 15 inch pitch Rebel, top speed on a good day is around 47-48 mph (currently can't get past 40).

edit: This morning I ran the drop tests while the engine was just warming up and cylinder 3 shows no change in engine running while all the other cylinders pretty much stall the motor as they get dropped, both ignition and injection.

Has anyone got any suggestions? (engine history report attached)

Thanks,

Paul

 
Attached Files
pdf 250enginereport_7202017.pdf (36.42 KB, 15 views)


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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel

olypopper

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Reply with quote  #2 
There is a range for tps cal but not a spec. It has nothing to do with what you are chasing. TPS cal is used to fine tune lean/rich running of the engine with regards to throttle plate opening.

Have you looked at the intake reeds? Was the spark plug wet with oil or fuel? Wet with oil will usually be failure to deliver fuel. Wet with fuel will be ignition failure or reed failure.

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crabby

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Reply with quote  #3 
Reeds: I tried to look past the throttle plates but could not get a good look.  There was a small bit of plastic bag and some other debris caught up on the air box.  Guess I will need to pull the shrouds again so's I can get a better look at the reeds (hate pulling them while the boat is in the water, I wish the air box would come off without pulling the shrouds).

Plug doesn't seem oily, just totally blackened (all others are sparkling white).

Funny, I was just on the Boyesen site looking at reeds.

Sparkplug pics attached.

Attached Images
Click image for larger version - Name: portplugs1.jpg, Views: 29, Size: 521.33 KB  Click image for larger version - Name: starbdplugs1.jpg, Views: 27, Size: 472.12 KB 

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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel

crabby

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Posts: 111
Reply with quote  #4 
As the issue seems to be NOT related to fuel (hard to think I installed a brand new no-working injector) and since swapping the ignition coils did not cause any issues in the cylinder that got #3's coil I agree it may be something got ingested and damaged the reeds on that cylinder.  I will keep you all posted.

Thanks to Dan (Oly) for the tip.

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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel
olypopper

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Reply with quote  #5 
If you find you have a broken reed, get Chris Carson reeds.  Boyesen reeds don't last in my opinion and for the last 6 years, I've sold only Chris Carson reeds and have never seen one fail.  
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crabby

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Reply with quote  #6 
Yup, just swapped emails with Chris.

I just hope (if it is a damaged reed) that more damage has not been done internally.  Guess using it will need to wait since the problem may have been narrowed down to possible reed(s) and not just a rich running injector.  May need to pick up a cheap borescope this afternoon.

Thanks again!

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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel
olypopper

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Reply with quote  #7 
Leakdown the cylinder and if it's good, no worries.  Also, if you don't have much luck finding a leakdown tester, you can just pull the head as that is easy.  You really need to pull the intake to inspect the reeds.  I've got a cheapo bore scope and it's rarely any good at viewing reeds with much quality.  Nothing will substitute a good tear down and inspection. 
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crabby

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Reply with quote  #8 
Found the problem with cylinder #3: two broken reeds.  See the attached image.

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Click image for larger version - Name: broken reeds4.jpg, Views: 22, Size: 542.57 KB 

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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel

boscoe

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Reply with quote  #9 

Hopefully there is minimal/no piston or cylinder damage. Keep us posted please.

I hate it when a cheaper part takes out a really expensive part.

For want of a cheap nail a shoe was lost...

steelhead

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Reply with quote  #10 
Interesting, almost matched break lines.
Looks like a piece of metal FOD hit both plates at the bottom of the reed cage, fracturing both.
Time to pull the heads to find the pieces and damage.
Look for missing bolts/nuts on reed cage, reed plate, intake plenum and TPS throttle bodies

Hopefully you've had a chance to read the posts on here about using Chris Carson non metallic replacement reeds, not the BRP metal reeds.  Ends the problem of internal motor damage from flying metal reed plate pieces.

http://www.chriscarsonmarine.com/reed-valves.htm
crabby

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Reply with quote  #11 
No other parts appeared broken or were missing.  No sign of the pieces of reeds from what I could see looking into the crankcase and lower part of the piston and there were no visible signs of damage that I could see on the wall of the cylinder insert.  I have probably put at least ten hours or more on the motor while diagnosing the issue since the problem first surfaced, I have a feeling the parts may have found their way out of the cylinder by now. 

The motor ran as good if not better than ever before once I put it back together yesterday, tach readings were about 200 rpms higher than my old norm (getting close to 5900 at a high trim, used to struggle reaching 5700).

I'll pull the plug for that cylinder and fish around just to double check, maybe pick up a head gasket and pull the head.

Used carson sport reeds for the repair.

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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel
olypopper

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Reply with quote  #12 
"Used carson sport reeds for the repair."

[thumb]

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boscoe

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Reply with quote  #13 
Damage surely can be strange at times. Almost nothing happens and a motor is destroyed. Hopefully we have a situation here where critical metal parts have gone missing and hopefully have caused no damage. Which otherwise could have destroyed the motor.

Not Etec related but years ago I was involved with a four stroke motor where a piece of a valve broke loose. It damaged the cylinder what with chunks of valve pieces flying around. One of those valve pieces made its way back out of the cylinder while the motor was running, into the intake manifold, and then apparently got ingested into an adjacent cylinder. The cylinder that did not have the valve failure got worse damage to the piston and the cylinder than did the cylinder that have the valve failure. Almost defied belief.
crabby

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Posts: 111
Reply with quote  #14 
Just a follow up:  The motor seems to be running better than ever (knock on wood).  Picked up some top end speed, better economy, and ability to hold a plane at lower speeds. 

This was a PITA for me to diagnose (involved building a diagnostic cable, replacing a non-damaged injector, and hardest part of all pulling the  lower shrouds with the boat in the water multiple times), but now that it's running better than ever the cure was well worth it!

Carson Reeds forever!   And thanks to Olypopper for the troubleshooting suggestions.

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2004 90hp ETEC/17 BW Montauk, 15 pitch Stiletto
2009 250 3.3l ETEC/22 BW Outrage with Whaler Drive (bracket), 15 pitch Rebel
31contender

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Posts: 74
Reply with quote  #15 
This is good to hear.  I just put Carson reeds on both my motors.  I actually went to his shop and we talked for a long time.  He gave me great advise on how to move forward.  Sent 12 injectors to the Injector Man in Naples to have them cleaned.  Looking forward to getting them back in with my new Carson sport reeds as well.  I found the reeds on the cylinder I was having a problem with where not closing all the way.  Probably very close to breaking loose.  
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