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rickmcd53

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Posts: 2,267
Reply with quote  #1 
The instruction sheet says 40 - 90hp AG models. Not for rope start or pontoon models. Why not on the pontoon models? Is that feature deleted in the programing? I run a pontoon 90 and cruise 4 hours in a day between 1,000 and 1,800 rpm.
Also why couldn't it be used on the 25/30 remote model since all of the 25/30 tillers have touch troll?
ElderSparky

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Posts: 845
Reply with quote  #2 
Only on the specified models is the switch input circuitry designed for a basically undetermined length of wire connecting the T Troll switch to the EMM.  If the circuitry is not designed properly, interference and/or damage to system components could result.
GEB

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Posts: 2,088
Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Elder,
If I may ask here.
A search Online and of EOG has failed to find anyone that had actually done this, fitted a Touch Troll on an E-TEC 30 (or smaller HP) that was manufactured as Remote Steer, as mine was.
The Touch Troll Kit #768017 http://www.dealerport.com/dealerport/instructionsheets/PDF/358268_screen.pdf
would appear to easily lend itself to being adapted. 3 wires only , Green / Down, Blue / Up and Black / Earth. My engine wiring harness has a plug #5 for the Tiller Harness and the 3 relevant wires Red, Pink and Black for the Touch Troll Switch (in that plug #5). All that would need to be done is establish which wires, Red or Pink for Up / Down and connect them to their “mates” Blue or Green from the Kit # 768017.

The one question I can’t answer as yet, Does the EMM need to be reset to Tiller from Remote so that it will register the input +/- from the Touch Troll Switch.
Bear in mind that this is an E-TEC 30 Remote Steer (from the factory) being “adapted” to Touch Troll and I don’t know what else may be impacted by changing the setting (if required).
Any advice appreciated

Cheers
GEB

__________________
Stacer 389 Territory Striker
Model No.E25DTSLAFC
Serial No. 5503333
Mid North Coast
New South Wales
Australia 
The learner will not shear the rams.

ElderSparky

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Posts: 845
Reply with quote  #4 
Any attempt to install the Touch Troll Kit #768017 on a remote configured engine would be ill advised.  In addition, an engine should be configured as it is being used.  Tiller mode for tillers and remote mode for remote controls.  Engine functions and possibly safety related functions may be altered depending upon the mode configuration.  The answer to your one question is yes.
rickmcd53

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Posts: 2,267
Reply with quote  #5 
Elder, I can see where the two points about design could be valid, maybe more so on the 25/30. However the 40-90 tiller models have a troll switch on the tiller and the remote model have a connector installed under the cowl to install the dash mount switch with the supplied 20' cable. So the question remains as to why it says "do not install on the pontoon series"?
ElderSparky

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Posts: 845
Reply with quote  #6 
EMMs are not identical.  Hardware differences to allow for dash mounted troll switch
boscoe

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Posts: 517
Reply with quote  #7 

Elder, help me to understand something please. Not related to an Etec but rather to brand X that also has a troll switch on a tiller handle. The switch applies a ground only to make the troll RPM change.

The manufacturer of brand X cautions not to extend the length of the switch wiring, as damage might ensue. I am wondering why that might be. Either the motor is going to get the ground signal or it won't. If it does not get the ground, say because of excessive resistance, then it should be the same as the switch not being activated. If it does see the ground, then the ECM should respond and vary the RPM.

By the way, I extended the switch wiring and it all works just fine. Just not understanding what the engine makers concerns were based on.

What might I be missing? Thanks

rickmcd53

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Posts: 2,267
Reply with quote  #8 
boscoe, I would suspect that similar to lawnmowers having stickers that injury may occur if you put your hands under a running mower. Damage might ensue from someone extending wiring incorrectly or if they extend the switch to the bow and try to regulate motor speed without being close to the kill switch or shifter.
Elder, I verified today through EPC and visually that both the E90DSLAFD and E90SLAFC (pontoon series) have the same EMM and wiring harness part numbers. They both also have the plug in pig tail for the touch troll switch in the harness. I'll give this topic a few days to see if anyone has tried it. Than I'll see what BRP tech help says.
GEB

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Posts: 2,088
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boscoe

Elder, help me to understand something please. Not related to an Etec but rather to brand X that also has a troll switch on a tiller handle. The switch applies a ground only to make the troll RPM change.

The manufacturer of brand X cautions not to extend the length of the switch wiring, as damage might ensue. I am wondering why that might be. Either the motor is going to get the ground signal or it won't. If it does not get the ground, say because of excessive resistance, then it should be the same as the switch not being activated. If it does see the ground, then the ECM should respond and vary the RPM.

By the way, I extended the switch wiring and it all works just fine. Just not understanding what the engine makers concerns were based on.

What might I be missing? Thanks


Hi Boscoe,
I’ll try, without knowing the exact type of electronic control device the manufacturer is using for the Touch Troll, to give you an answer. The actual electronic components concerned, buried in an Intergrated Circuit, in the ECU may depend on either Current flow or Voltage to operate when you “supply a ground” by operating the Touch Troll Switch you are completing the circuit.
IMO, The manufacturers concern about the length of wire would be because increasing it’s length would increase the total resistance and this would change the current flow through the wire and the resulting Voltage drop. Potentially damaging the electronics in the circuit. The other concern would be (for the manufacturer) that increasing the length of the wire may still allow the Touch Troll to work but it could possibly malfunction, creating a dangerous situation.
Ohm’s Law States E = I X R where E is the Electromotive force / Voltage, I is the current flow and R is the resistance, if you change any one the other values will change as a result. There’s any number of different types of specialised electronic components (within an Intergrated Circuit) that could be used to step the RPM up or down and possibly perform other engine management functions in conjunction with the operation of the Touch Troll. The Manufacturer would have designed the Touch Troll circuit to operate (reliably) within the operating parameters of the components used and altering the length of the wire has the potential to upset those parameters.
In your instance you’ve gotten away with lengthening the wire, well and good but IMO the Manufacturer wouldn’t have warned against it if they didn’t see a risk of damage / malfunction. Sorry about the $2 words but I’m actually trying to keep it simple. With the very complex electronic components in common use today I’m afraid that your “either on or off” assumptions have lead you astray. Yes you’re supplying and earth and completing the circuit which (should) then allows current to flow and voltage to change but this may be being accomplished via a resulting magnetic field or some other means and even very small changes could influence the “either on or off”.
Clear as mud ?
Cheers
GEB


__________________
Stacer 389 Territory Striker
Model No.E25DTSLAFC
Serial No. 5503333
Mid North Coast
New South Wales
Australia 
The learner will not shear the rams.

GEB

Registered:
Posts: 2,088
Reply with quote  #10 
Hi again boscoe,
I’ve just reread my post and I’m not happy with it as I don’t think I’ve managed to convey what I meant so let me reduce it all to this.
The manufacturer wouldn’t have issued the warning unless they knew from previous experience that lengthening the wire could result in “bad things happening” and they’re protecting the customer and more importantly themselves from the resulting litigation.
(Cynically) yours LOL
GEB

__________________
Stacer 389 Territory Striker
Model No.E25DTSLAFC
Serial No. 5503333
Mid North Coast
New South Wales
Australia 
The learner will not shear the rams.

boscoe

Registered:
Posts: 517
Reply with quote  #11 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEB
Hi again boscoe, I’ve just reread my post and I’m not happy with it as I don’t think I’ve managed to convey what I meant so let me reduce it all to this. The manufacturer wouldn’t have issued the warning unless they knew from previous experience that lengthening the wire could result in “bad things happening” and they’re protecting the customer and more importantly themselves from the resulting litigation. (Cynically) yours LOL GEB


I am as cynical as the next guy. Maybe moreso. Comes with time, age and being lied to.

Certainly manufacturers have to cover their arses, and rightfully so.

It is interesting to note that in the case of brand X, after a number of years they now offer an extension harness for the trolling lead. What they said for a number of years as not to be done, is now acceptable.

They said the same thing about AGM batteries for years. Said they would not work with the brand. Then out of the blue they were acceptable.

Now another different brand once upon a time poopoo'd the use of a boat mounted fuel filter on the premise that the engine mounted filter provided all of the protection needed and could cause harm in the event of an excessive restriction to fuel flow. Then out of the blue they changed their minds. It is now a good idea.

Maybe it is a result of management within a company changing over time. No one company has full agreement within as to the company's position. It is generally the top dogs position that gets stated as the company position. If and when people change, the company position can change.

GEB

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Posts: 2,088
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmcd53
boscoe, I would suspect that similar to lawnmowers having stickers that injury may occur if you put your hands under a running mower. Damage might ensue from someone extending wiring incorrectly or if they extend the switch to the bow and try to regulate motor speed without being close to the kill switch or shifter.
Elder, I verified today through EPC and visually that both the E90DSLAFD and E90SLAFC (pontoon series) have the same EMM and wiring harness part numbers. They both also have the plug in pig tail for the touch troll switch in the harness. I'll give this topic a few days to see if anyone has tried it. Than I'll see what BRP tech help says.


Hi rickmcd53,
Anything to report from BRP tech help ?
Cheers
GEB

__________________
Stacer 389 Territory Striker
Model No.E25DTSLAFC
Serial No. 5503333
Mid North Coast
New South Wales
Australia 
The learner will not shear the rams.

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