Bringing Evinrude E-TEC owners together.

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SavageEtec

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 85
Reply with quote  #1 

I see a lot of posts lately about problems people are having with E-Tec injectors.

 

I had a conversation with an Evinrude / Johnson dealership owner the other day that I found interesting and I though I would share it with the forum.

 

Our hole family got together over Christmas and spent a few days at our mums, this is on an island and the population is mostly retires, although at holiday time the island is packed with tourists and boats.

 

There is one boat dealer on the island; they have been Evinrude / Johnson agents for as long as I can remember.

 

I go to the boat place to get a gallon of XD-100 and end up talking to the owner about all things E-Tec. I ask him how they are finding reliability and are there any major problems they are seeing with the motors.

 

Well he tells me that the powerheads and lower units are just about bullet proof. He then tells me the biggest problem they have is injector failures.

 

I say to him that I have heard that E-Tec has a problem with injectors and ask more questions.

 

Well this dealer is switched on and has 2 very well trained mechanics as well, he said that when an injector fails they always persist with the problem until they discover the root cause of the failure, and don’t just change the injector out and hope for the best.

 

He then tells me to date EVERY INJECTOR FAILURE was traced back to contaminated fuel.

 

The main culprit he said is a no-name petrol station on the island that sells cheap fuel, they sell 91, 95 and 98 octane petrol, the 91 and 95 octanes have 10% Ethanol, like I say the island is mostly retired old foke, so cheap petrol is to good to resist and they probably don’t see the little E10 sticker in the pump.

 

The dealer said he gets in all kind of arguments with customers that say they run the best fuel separators or they have their fuel caps under the storm covers on the boat, but he said if you dig deep enough you will find an ethanol / water emulsion somewhere in the system.

 

His comments and recommendations for my engine were to NOT use E10 under any circumstances, run a Raycor filter separator with clear bowl, always fill and store the boat with fresh fuel from a reputable brand petrol station you trust.

 

His comment was all outboards are designed to run on fresh clean fuel, no outboard is designed to run on muddy water.


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Hull: Savage 2004 Mod: 620 Swordfish SL
Engine: Evinrude 150 hp E-Tec
Prop: 14.5 x 15 Cyclone
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Ser: 05250903
Cooloola Coast, Queensland, Australia
JohnnyCW

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Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 522
Reply with quote  #2 
E10 is an unavoidable reality for many boat owners.  More by the day have no alternative.

At some point Evinrude/BRP and dealers cannot continue to blame the boat owner for what seems to be becoming an ever increasing and sometimes unavoidable issue.  The machinery needs to be able to tolerate the wide variety of conditions most boat owners face and not just suit those that are fortunate to be able to avoid E10 or are able to run their boats on a frequent and regular schedule.

If its is contaminated fuel that is the culprit the majority of the time and E10 is the biggest factor, the injector failure rate will continue to increase and owner dissatisfaction will continue to rise.

I have a 2010 115 I purchased this last summer and the injector issue has me very concerned.  E10 is all I have available and my boat sometimes sits for several weeks at a time for a variety of reasons including unexpected changes in my personal schedule, business, and weather.  If my equipment cant tolerate a little less than ideal conditions, its useless and the manufacturer has failed.

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Johnny AKA Johnny-Boy


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1991 BW 17' Outrage I
2010 Etec 115
Solas HR Titan 13-1/4" x 15", 39 mph @ 5600 rpm
Viper 13-7/8" x 17", 44 mph @ 5700 rpm
Huey

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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 8,349
Reply with quote  #3 

Hi, yes we see similar results when we do some investigating. Not to say that injectors can just fail and yes as I am sure most would know on here there was a batch of suspect injectors with winding faults from new, but as i have said before most we see can also be fuel related and in an industry magazine that came today there is a big article about ethanol and what it can do in the marine environment.

Cheers,

Huey. 

PS-Johnny E-TECs are designed to and can happily run on E10, problems happen when the boats fuel supply is not able to cope with it and/or with the lack of use some boats have you get phase separation and ethanol being a water attractant that is the last thing you want on a boat.

JohnnyCW

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Gold Level Member 11-12
Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 522
Reply with quote  #4 
Huey I understand the issues with E10 and phase separation/moisture.  My point is, it seems reasonable to expect that it will continue to be a growing problem.

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Johnny AKA Johnny-Boy


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1991 BW 17' Outrage I
2010 Etec 115
Solas HR Titan 13-1/4" x 15", 39 mph @ 5600 rpm
Viper 13-7/8" x 17", 44 mph @ 5700 rpm
Chris

Silver Level Member 3-2010
Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 498
Reply with quote  #5 
So are you suggesting that E-tecs should be able to run on water ?



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DangerMouse

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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 651
Reply with quote  #6 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
So are you suggesting that E-tecs should be able to run on water ?


No one is suggesting that.. What he suggesting is that the injector to be made to be more tolerant.. It might mean that the injector need to be made from a strong durable alloy...

My take on the water in fuel is this.... Water pass through the injector in small amount is not going to kill the injector or affect the injector....

It is when the motor is switch off and laid up for few days or more when the water become an issue... A few droplets off water sit inside the injector and start to form surface rust..

The rust does 3 things... Causes blockages at the injector tip, weakens the Voice coil, and inhibits smooth operation of the injector piston....
Anyone off the three will cause the injector to fail.....

The Big Question is,,,,,, Can the injector be built using a material that does not rust or corrode from water or ethanol

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Seafarer, Vermont 5.9. 250 E-tec
mod #. E250DPXSUA
Ser #, 05194436
torew

Gold Level Member 3-2010
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 2,132
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
So are you suggesting that E-tecs should be able to run on water ?


No one is suggesting that.. What he suggesting is that the injector to be made to be more tolerant.. It might mean that the injector need to be made from a strong durable alloy...

My take on the water in fuel is this.... Water pass through the injector in small amount is not going to kill the injector or affect the injector....

It is when the motor is switch off and laid up for few days or more when the water become an issue... A few droplets off water sit inside the injector and start to form surface rust..

The rust does 3 things... Causes blockages at the injector tip, weakens the Voice coil, and inhibits smooth operation of the injector piston....
Anyone off the three will cause the injector to fail.....

The Big Question is,,,,,, Can the injector be built using a material that does not rust or corrode from water or ethanol

First, Savage: Your dealer is wrong: There are two reasons for injector failure. I had one injector failing after about 1 months use (~30 hours). That had an open circuit and threw an error message as such. Nothing to do with water or ethanol.

Second, Danger: Yes, it is possible to make the injector of a better material. It should be built in seawater proof aluminium and not the cheap stuff they are using now. My injectors are corroded on the outside just from the salt in the air the motor sucks in, that is really not very satisfying. A simple switch to a better alloy should give a much better life time of the injectors, and will be necessary to avoid the coming problems du to higher ethanol content in the fuel.

We in Norway are lucky not to have any ethanol in the fuel, but som companies are starting to suggest mixing 5% into some of the fuels, so I am worried that we too have it coming in a few years.
DangerMouse

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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 651
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tower

First, Savage: Your dealer is wrong: There are two reasons for injector failure. I had one injector failing after about 1 months use (~30 hours). That had an open circuit and threw an error message as such. Nothing to do with water or ethanol.

Second, Danger: Yes, it is possible to make the injector of a better material. It should be built in seawater proof aluminium and not the cheap stuff they are using now. My injectors are corroded on the outside just from the salt in the air the motor sucks in, that is really not very satisfying. A simple switch to a better alloy should give a much better life time of the injectors, and will be necessary to avoid the coming problems Du to higher ethanol content in the fuel.

We in Norway are lucky not to have any ethanol in the fuel, but some companies are starting to suggest mixing 5% into some of the fuels, so I am worried that we too have it coming in a few years.


I knew the answer to question,, I was hoping someone at BRP would see the question and it would get the gears turning in their head....

However for the work the injector has to do and the life cycle it should have, aluminum is to soft, so to is stainless steel... I am sure a there is a metal that can be formulated to meet the demand off the E-tec injector...

BRP and NASA teamed up to engineer a new Alloy for the E-tec's Piston.. Maybe they can doing it again for there injectors...

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SavageEtec

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 85
Reply with quote  #9 
Originally Posted by Torew
"First, Savage: Your dealer is wrong: There are two reasons for injector failure. I had one injector failing after about 1 months use (~30 hours). That had an open circuit and threw an error message as such. Nothing to do with water or ethanol".


Torew,
He is a dealer but not my dealer, I can only relay what was told to me, this dealer and myself are fully aware of open circuit injector problems, this I understand has largely been overcome and was a problem in the early days. The man said that all the problems he is seeing is from contaminated ethanol fuel, I am just relaying what was told to me.

Do a google of outboards and ethanol and it's just not E-Tecs that suffer problems from this crap fuel, it is destroying all makes of engines.

Don't blame Evinrude, they made a fine engine that will run on the crappy E10 fuel of today, but don't expect an E-Tec to run on water if you can't maintain a healthy fuel system in your rig.

BTW, I just typed "marine ethanol problems" into google and got 705,000 results.

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Hull: Savage 2004 Mod: 620 Swordfish SL
Engine: Evinrude 150 hp E-Tec
Prop: 14.5 x 15 Cyclone
Mod: E150DPXSEA
Ser: 05250903
Cooloola Coast, Queensland, Australia
Utik

Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 119
Reply with quote  #10 

I share this concern.  I have a 2007 40 hp that has had 3 injectors relaced within the first 300 hours.  The first 2 had not failed technically.  They were replaced to resolve a mid range stutter.  The 3rd one hard failed.

I don't dispute that fuel issues may be part of the cause.  BUT, I use the exact same fuel in 3 ATVs, 2 snowmobiles, 2 lawnmowers, 1 chainsaw, 1 string trimmer, 1 generator, 1 snowblower and 2 automobiles.  None of these other devices has ever had a fuel related issue.  Some of them sit for extended periods of time.  I use fuel stabilizer 100% of the time in everything except the automobiles.  I use an external Racor 10 micron water separating filter in addition to the internal filter. 

My concern is that these fuel injectors not designed to be tolerant of the fuel and operating environment that is available to the majority of the customers. 

luredaddy

Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #11 
Utik,
I have a 2006 50HP,  E50DPLSD  #05134658, I had a mid range stutter, still do, and a plug fouling problem.  Both injectors were replaced and the fouling problem stopped.  What is the status of your mid range stutter.  I tried to use the Private Message system, but it said that page was not available.
John

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Luredaddy
besman

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 71
Reply with quote  #12 
What I fail to see in reading all of these posts about injector failure is that everyone is looking at the engine.  No one is looking at the fuel or the fuel system in the boat.  I believe it is a combination of all of the above.  In our area, we can still get real gas for now at some stations.  Also, the ethanol here is blended in at the station by the deliverey driver so, depending on the driver and his/her mood, you may e10 with 10% ethanol or 5% or if he's having a bad day 35%!  Human error is the major factor there.  Also, the factor or the boat's fuel system is rarely questioned.  Boat makers should be following the standards but if a builder or dealer is cutting corner by using lesser grades fuel lines, tanks or components, and the customer who buys the boat only uses e10.  The corrosive e10 can eventually eat away at the fuel system and the engine draws in this contaminated gas.  There may be an issue with the injectors, but everyone seems quick to point to them and fail to look at other things that could be contributing to the problem.

Ultimately, i think the solution is to drop this bad cologne-smelling e10 crap and go back to real gas but that'll never happen with all the govt' subsidies with e10.

Just my .02 worth.

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JohnnyCW

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Registered: 08/26/09
Posts: 522
Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
So are you suggesting that E-tecs should be able to run on water ?



Are you simply trolling or did you not actually read my post?

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Johnny AKA Johnny-Boy


_/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\__/\_
1991 BW 17' Outrage I
2010 Etec 115
Solas HR Titan 13-1/4" x 15", 39 mph @ 5600 rpm
Viper 13-7/8" x 17", 44 mph @ 5700 rpm
viking

Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 29
Reply with quote  #14 
Dark clouds are already shoving up in the horizon here in Norway, Torew.
STATOIL Norway`s largest oil company have announced they Will start mixing
5 % ethanol in our gasoline in very short time.
Chris

Silver Level Member 3-2010
Registered: 04/19/08
Posts: 498
Reply with quote  #15 
Are you simply trolling or did you not actually read my post?

Nope I read your post, you are complaining about a problem that has not even occurred to your engine based on a few people who are ranting on here in the hope that BRP will extend their warranties.

Which ever way you read it the guys that know what they are talking about (Evinrude, Huey etc) have stated clearly on a number of occasions that with the correct set up and fuel system then the injectors are not considered to be an issue. Yes there was a bad batch and in every case on this website any failures have been replaced by BRP under warranty and any further damage caused by failure has also been resolved by BRP.







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